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 Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?

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djMikulec
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PostSubject: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:32 am

So, I've got this (relatively solid) '57 HT Belvy arriving soon. She's been sitting in an ancient junk yard since the early 70s and the intake has been off the poly for an undetermined amount of time. I figure the motor is probably toast and frozen solid. Plus, she's only got a PowerFlite.

On the other hand, I do have this nice '62 Imperial Crown 4dr sitting here in my shop, an all original survivor with a nice 413 Wedge and a TorqueFlite. Before I found the Belvedere I was going to pull the motor anyway since it needs rings but now am thinking why not just drop the combo into my '57.

Any thoughts on how big of a challenge this might be? Motor mounts, shift cables, linkage, driveshaft, steering column clearances, etc?

-=Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:10 am

Fury Jim has done this several times. Send him a PM.
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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:52 am

Dave,
2 things to consider-

If the Imperial is a survivor, it will have little value after removing its drivetrain.

Also, parts are quite a bit more expensive for a 413 than a 383 or 440 would be.

Would it be worth selling the Imp complete, and using that money for your drivetrain combo? As Joe said, the swap can be done, and has been done by others here, but it is not just a drop-in job.

---John

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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:13 am

Though she's solid with no serious rot, the Imp does have some body rust issues typical of cars that have lived in the rust belt. It was for sale for less than $1000 for quite some time, with no takers before I traded for it. Might be worth more in parts than as a whole car. At this point I'm just trying to weigh my options and plan ahead for the tasks that lie ahead of me. It will be awhile before I get to the point of planting a motor back into her. Cool
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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:16 am

I could see your point then, Dave.

---John

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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:24 pm

my original intentions was to put a 413 in my savoy out of a 65 imperial. i was told you can put 440 heads on a 413 which makes me believe the motor mounts and such should be the same as a 440 and there is quite a few 58 plymouths with 440's

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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:35 pm

Any Big block would bolt in the same From the 350 BB to the 440 Smile I mean engines but they would be some differences in the trannys and linkage for the shifter.Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:47 pm

Thanks Bob, I was hoping to hear that the motor mounts wouldn't be an issue. One thing to scratch off the list. As for trans, the aluminum '62 TF that the 413 is currently mated to - are they about the same size as the older TorqueFlites or will the trans hump have to be enlarged when I put new floors in? There's a 2 speed PF in there now so I know I'll have to get a 3 speed button ass'y.
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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:05 pm

Dave,Now You will have to change the motor mounts you would use the same as a 350 BB uses and they are some other Early Mopars are the same motor mounts, Big M would probly have some.
I was fortunate enough to have a parts Fury to get the things I needed. The tranny will fit ok in the Stock floor pans. You will need to make yu a tranny mount AND re work the drive line.

Does the 62 only have one cable and the emergency brake drum on the end of it. I am thinking a 62 Does. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:16 pm

62 TF is a one cable setup.

On the motor mounts, I wasn't sure if those on the frame would need relocated too or not. I need to go back and re-read that 440 thread here. Thanks for the info sir.
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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:31 pm

djMikulec wrote:
62 TF is a one cable setup.

On the motor mounts, I wasn't sure if those on the frame would need relocated too or not. I need to go back and re-read that 440 thread here. Thanks for the info sir.
Dave first of all don;t call me SIr Hee! Hee! I was a Sgt in the Army I worked for a living Hee! Hee!
Now you said your car had a 318 poly in it, well if it had a V/8 you would not need to relocate your motor mount stands just put the other mounts on them. I beleive if your tranny only has one cable it would fit right up to a torqueflight 5 button shifter. I know if I am wrong I will be corrected by one of out Guru's Hee! Hee!


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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:38 pm

58plym wrote:
Dave first of all don;t call me SIr Hee! Hee! I was a Sgt in the Army I worked for a living Hee! Hee!

I should know better, I work at Ft. Knox. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:47 pm

I heard they had a lot of Gold at Ft Knoxx Hee! Hee!

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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:39 pm

I didn't know sgt's worked for a living. I thought it was just the E1-E4 that did all the work. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:14 pm

All kidding aside, thanks for the info Bob. I had read the 440 thread and came away with a lot of good info, like using the BB motor mounts on the 413 block. Just wasn't sure if the mounts on the frame needed relocating or not. Now I know.

Thanks again Sarge. Cool
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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:01 pm

djMikulec wrote:
All kidding aside, thanks for the info Bob. I had read the 440 thread and came away with a lot of good info, like using the BB motor mounts on the 413 block. Just wasn't sure if the mounts on the frame needed relocating or not. Now I know.

Thanks again Sarge. Cool

now dont start calling bobby sarg. stuff like that goes right to his head :na na na na:
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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:28 am

eva_392 wrote:
I didn't know sgt's worked for a living. I thought it was just the E1-E4 that did all the work. Smile
Hee! Hee! Hey Ron Im glad you were paying attention Very Happy How's things going my friend. :Idaho Bob:

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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:30 am

JAG wrote:
djMikulec wrote:
All kidding aside, thanks for the info Bob. I had read the 440 thread and came away with a lot of good info, like using the BB motor mounts on the 413 block. Just wasn't sure if the mounts on the frame needed relocating or not. Now I know.

Thanks again Sarge. Cool

now dont start calling bobby sarg. stuff like that goes right to his head :na na na na:
Swearing :Head to Head: Hee! Hee!

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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:13 am

eva_392 wrote:
I didn't know sgt's worked for a living. I thought it was just the E1-E4 that did all the work. Smile

Welcome back Ron.....Good to see you posting again!!
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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Wed May 08, 2013 8:19 am

I saw the PM from a while back- sorry for the delay, i havent been on here in literally a month or 2 at this point!
So, putting any big block in the 57-59 chassis is no different than putting any other engine in, it is true that all B/RB engines share the same engine mounts, so any 350-413 58-59 mounts will put any 350-440 in a stock location in the 57-9 chassis. trans mount is a different story, as only the iron TF will work with the factory style mount- that said only 58-61 big blocks have the proper hub to use the crank-mounted converter for the iron TF, 62-up use a flexplate/aluminum torqueflite 727. as for the modern torqueflites, all use the same mounts, I've put big blocks in all but 3 Plymouths I've built... so that means about 25 BB's in 57-9 chassis! every time i make a trans mount, because... i don't prefer the 58/9 BB factory mount, most of my engines will decimate them #1, and #2, the engine sits too far forward and slightly off center for my liking... my latest swap- a 57 2dr wagon with 67 440 w/300E intake, and 65 cable 727, I used factory mounts just to speed things up, plus its a real mild 440 which may be just slightly over the 400hp mark breathing through the restrictive 59 dual quad intake and 59 413 manifolds.. just to run a generator! with 3.23 gears/suregrip, it only lays down tracks through first and 1/2 of second gear.. and runs out of steam just as the needle is out of sight... sounds like just under 6k RPM as i dont even have a tach....
anyway, i like to make my own engine mounts, sometimes i clear the factory stantions off the chassis and start from scratch, I've used the modern 70's type mounts with dowel mounts, with a 413 i put in the copper glow wagon, i used factory frame mounts with custom engine mounts that iuse poly B-body mounts on the stock frame mount and set the engine back almost 3" from stock location, centered in chassis.
I can write a thesis on eack car's installation, pics of trans mounts, etc.. but every car can be the same or 100% unique- depends on the power range of the engine, choice of manifolds, headers, etc... oil pan.. If you want to use the 59/9 mounts, you HAVE to run the 58-62 oil pan, no exceptions... 63-up and you wont be allowed to aligned tot he factory mounts. 7 qt pan... you're making mounts!

on the wagon, with stock 58 motor mounts and 65 727... i made a quick and stronger-than-can-be-imaginged perch off the crossmember to use a GM trans mount, which bolts right to the 727 and is of the most convenient design, and available in everything from "make in china" to full race poly or solid configuration. the good part of it all was with the 122" wb of the wagin, with drivetrain located on stock motor mounts, a 65-68 C body driveshaft is a direct bolt-in, otherwise i usually shorten those for low hp stuff, or new from scratch shafts built for higher output apps.

with the 62 imp driveline, you have a ball and trunion flange to work with, should have the drum too- so your park cable goes right into that trans park drum, and the shift cable will be perfect too- right to your existing torqueflite selector- if PF, get a Tf selector. done deal!



and you can see the 440 sits in a good spot, though about 2" forward from where I would usually place it, but it gives a ton a clearance for the dual air cleaners to the heater box



a factory 350 GC sits in the same position:



here's a 440 on 100% custom mounts, solid stainless mount on driver side, 72 style on pass, rail type trans mount... headers, etc...

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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Wed May 08, 2013 12:31 pm

you are a walking book of knowledge Jim thank you so much for sharing

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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:36 am

[quote="djMikulec"]So, I've got this (relatively solid) '57 HT Belvy arriving soon. She's been sitting in an ancient junk yard since the early 70s and the intake has been off the poly for an undetermined amount of time. I figure the motor is probably toast and frozen solid. Plus, she's only got a PowerFlite.

On the other hand, I do have this nice '62 Imperial Crown 4dr sitting here in my shop, an all original survivor with a nice 413 Wedge and a TorqueFlite. Before I found the Belvedere I was going to pull the motor anyway since it needs rings but now am thinking why not just drop the combo into my '57.

Any thoughts on how big of a challenge this might be? Motor mounts, shift cables, linkage, driveshaft, steering column clearances, etc?




HI:
I actually just did just that. I'll tell you what we ran into. The 413 fit like a glove with the right motor mounts. I got them from mopar mel. only a transmission mount needs to be fabricated and welded to the cross member. I used shortie headers and a mini starter at the great guidance of big M up there, and a lokar cable kickdown linkage. I used a 62 torqueflite. Custom shift cables are available from imperialservices.net. you may need a little more slack than stock. And of course you'll need the 57 58 3 speed push button shifter. Once adjusted it works quite well. I'm not sure about any other transmission combos though, sorry. Lastly, you may run into a little filter clearance issues, but using a relocation kit solves that debacle. Another nice thing: the RB engine weighs 20 lbs less than the old poly.
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PostSubject: Re: Ever drop a 413 Wedge into your 57?   Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:29 am

Mopar Mel sent you a part! Where is my 1958 spark plug wire seperators MEL?! thanks, God...Marc.

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